@austin.and12: People leave the church because of this? #lds #mormon #churchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints #exmo #cesletter

Joey Sedated :

Seeing God and Jesus isn't worth notating? 🤣🤣🤣

Collin newman :

Buuuuuuuut, why would and all knowing all loving God only speak to this one very specific and random kid at this specific time after years of “darkness” and not the rest of his children he purportedly loves

GTgrandGT :

The claim is the church hid the other accounts

Casually Blasphemous :

“ same details”??? how many deities appear to him is a big detail that is not the same. One time he didn’t even claim to be asking about what church is true. One time they only told him that his sins were forgiven. These are not the same details. These are not small details that he would’ve mixed up. These are the very reasons why he was doing this prayer in the first place.

Boomerdad :

The visions aren’t even close. I have had so many less significant events that I can still retell the story that are quite close

not it :

yep... the underlying details and message vary greatly.... it's unfortunate you can't be honest about that.

Altar Of Absurdity :

it's not only the Joseph did it right about it. NO ONE wrote about it or talked about it until after the church was established in 1830. to me, it looks like it was something Joseph made up after the church was founded to bolster his claims.

James Brewster :

“He didn’t think it was important!” (Meeting God face to face)

BuggMann :

I encourage you to watch people defend scientology, Jehovah's witnesses, or any other religion. compare the way they talk about it and the way you talk about Mormonism

Alessandro :

you wouldn't believe it if he used the exact same words?.... you should listen to Brad Wilcox or other church leaders and how they use the same exact talks over and over using the exact same words for years 😂😂

dannyt :

Ahhh, so the first one is the actual one. Who go t to choose which one? I can easily recall any important event in my life. I saw an angel, i mean i saw Jesus, I mean i saw a bunch of angels, I mean I saw God and Jesus Why do you trust that one?

ManofLions :

The "current" first vision wasn't written until 1838-1839. So if God told him to keep records in 1830, why did it take him another 8-9 years to record that he saw God. And then the church didnt publish it to the Church until 1842. Consider that in 1815 Norris Stearns saw two personages, Father and Son. In 1816 Elias Smith saw a pillar of light and Jesus appearing. In 1821 Charles Finney was surrounded by glory and fire. In 1823 Asa Wild claimed a revelation from God the Father. Interesting similarities and all before the current "first vision" account. Makes you wonder how Joseph developed his story from 1820 to 1839.

ma'am with a plan :

Bmf25 :

I thought those was a video debunking the CES letter 😂

Benski :

You’re right if I had a random story that didn’t involve me being a selected communicator with the great creator they probably wouldn’t be the same, but if I’m supposed to have this alleged direct communication, it probably should be exactly the same

Corey :

The story isn’t a detailed one. The number of “most important” details is like, uh, one: Who visited you? I mean, if God and Jesus visit you and that’s the gist of your entire story, that’s hard to tell differently over time. Imagine if people were that bad at remembering comparatively less significant events in our life, like the first car you bought being a Honda. No wait, was it a Toyota? Oh, I just can’t remember. Ugh.

user7189717211334 :

🤣🤣 sure dude

Scott McCracken802 :

Exact same, sure. That would be a feat. But to forget how many "personages" there were, account to account? Hmm.

Greekma5 :

Nope, never read it, just had my eyes opened by discernment 👍👍👍

JamesLeeAldo :

1832: One time I met the Vice President. 1835: I met the Vice President and a bunch of the cabinet. 1838: I met the President and the Vice President.

Monkey King :

Teenagers were already being married back then

Jaxson Blair 🇵🇸 :

Except that many of the most important details which are highlighted by the church as the most important details, are the exact parts that are inconsistent?

Schwackhammer2030 :

Also, the first story came up right at the time when his huge financial fraud of the Kirtland bank caused about 1/2 of all members to leave. He needed another faith promoting story.

JD Young :

the most important detail is that the 1832 account was never published. it makes far more sense that he was wrestling with how much of the vision to talk about. its far more focused on his own details than what he saw. and then he just put it away. so its not like he was sharing the 1 person version and switched to the 2 person version.